HomeCat FancyCat BreedingThe Real Turkish Angora Part 2


The Real Turkish Angora Part 2 — 19 Comments

  1. Here is the link to a slideshow of legitimate Turkish Angoras in the Ankara Zoo.,. They differ from the cats in the streets of Turkish towns only by colour in some cases. They are the naturally occurring cats of Turkey.

  2. Thank you. If these scans are too large, perhaps uploading some of these pictures from our article, could be a better idea and Google won’t have a problem with this. After all Turkish text makes little or no sense for most of your readers, so one page of article is enough.

    Please let us if you need some help about it.

    Kind Regards

  3. Dear Michael,

    Harvey is right the picture in the first scan of our article is NOT a real Turkish Angora, but breeder’s created breed. Adding this cat in the first page of article was a mistake of magazine’s editor and we we were not informed about this.

    This picture obviously will confuse some people. I would kindly suggest publishing the whole article not only the first page. There are some good pictures that make clear which is the real Turkish Angora and which is not. Like Harvey said the type of the real Angora and that one propagated by cat breeders is completely different. Those differences are not due to selective breeding but a result of dishonest breeders who used various unknown cats in creating the Turkish Angora breed we see today in cat shows. The picture that shows pointed and chocolate ”Angoras” that came from this ”pure breeding” (no known outcrosses in pedigrees according to the breeders!) is very important.

    We would be glad if you decide to publish the other parts of our article which was sent to you.

    Thank you.

    Kind Regards.

    • Sure, I will be pleased to do as you ask. In some ways it is a good thing because it emphasises the problem. I’ll add the extra photos later today. I didn’t do it first time because too many large pictures slow down page load times and Google does not like that.

  4. I suggest that the wrong photo of “The Real Turkish Angora” be changed at least on Pictures of Cats. Detractors of the real Turkish Angora will gain undeserved credence from it. This is a step backwards. What on earth were they thinking of?

  5. Hi Michael & Ankara Kedisi Dernegi,.
    My following contribution was posted on Turkish Angoras for kids and I think it it too complex for that section. So here it is again. It looks deeper into the mechanics of how this falsification came about. I believe the cat associations are as much to blame as dishonest breeders.

    • This was somehow cropped from my previous message.-
      Hi Michael & AKD. Thank you for these explanations which go a long way to clearing up and countering the deliberate misinformation put out by American cat societies and breeders. The Turkish Angora is even stated as a natural breed of cat still found it it’s native habitat but have been fooled by breeders who did not write the true ancestral information in the application for registration forms. Being a natural breed any out-crossing automatically disqualifies the affected cat from being recognised as a genuine TA. The enormous difference in type from the original should have alerted the cat associations that something dishonest was going on, but they obviously chose to ignore that and actually encouraged that situation by basing the breed standard on the new concoction. This of course discriminates against the true Turkish Angora at shows, etc. a shameful and unacceptable situation.

  6. Hello, Michael!

    Thank you a lot for this article.

    If you don’t mind we want to add our thoughts regarding to previous comments.

    First of all Ankara Zoo has no importance in Turkey, most of people in Turkey don’t even know about it. It’s a bit overrated, but still as we know it is a place where real but only white Angora cats are kept (despite that colored ones are found on the streets. Sadly they are not under protection). We have close connections to Ankara Zoo, if someone wants to to know about the Ankara Zoo more, they can ask us. Besides the Ankara Zoo has little or no authority in matters of the Angora cats.

    Additionally the picture in the first page of our article is not chosen by us, but the editor of the magazine. We were not happy to see it there. However if someone knows Turkish and reads the article (or reads English version in Micheal’s page) it becomes clear that the cat in the title page is not a real Angora 🙂

    Thank you Michael for for taking the time to write this article about us and thanks for Harvey Harrison for his clarifications.

    Warm Regards from Turkey

  7. I have not been following Pictures of Cats very closely because I no longer get notification of new postings. .I would like to add that cat breeders, at least the one’s I have tussled with over the real Turkish Angora are no experts at all, do not understand science or respect it, and are unable to understand even a phylogentic tree. The matter is very simple. The genetic signature of Ankara Zoo and Turkish random cats differs very widely from the genetic signature of the samples send in by owners of TICA and CFA pedigree “Angoras”. Leslie Lyons made an enormous mistake in her 2012 Turkish Cat Genetics Study by assuming that the samples sent in by American “Angora” breeders represented the true legitimate and original Turkish Angora. All following raw genetic data was consequently ignored or manipulated to maintain this myth. The consequences were hilarious. Ankara Zoo and Turkish mainland cats were classified as Cyprus group cats solely because they have the same marker. This means that Cyprus cats are Ankara kedileri, not that Ankara cats are Cypriot! The phylogenetic tree shows that the Egyptian Mau and Tunisian random-bred cats make up the genome of the cat fancy Angoras, but these cats also have many other breeds in their ancestry but this is hushed up by allocating them a single colour reference on her charts. This fake Turkish Angora potpourri reference shows up all over the place and probably just means a mind-boggling mix of breeds and non-breeds and is meaningless except to show they are unrelated to Ankara cats. In the raw data there are “Turkish” samples which show this jumble of markers but we are unable to trace any of the reported donors and in one case the claimed veterinary Clinic that supposedly gave samples does not exist. These suspicious samples were used to authenticate the legitimacy of the American cat fancy Angoras. Samples from reputable Turkish cat breeders which showed the “Cyprus/Ankara kedisi marker were ignored. This is clear manipulation of data to authenticate a desired pre-conceived conclusion. As a result the Ankara kedisi (national symbol of Turkey) in the guise of the “new” Cyprus Aphrodite breed has been declared the national cat of Greek Cyprus. Forgive me for laughing. When the Greeks finally realise this they will be livid.

    • Thanks Harvey for that horrific but not unexpected insight. I hope the people in Ankara Zoo read your comment and comment themselves. I don’t know exactly what goes on in the cat fancy but I can get a clear sense of it from what I see and read. My assessment, regrettably, is not good.

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      • Thanks very much Michael. At the risk of upsetting you I must comment that the picture of a cat shown with the header of “The Real Turkish Angora” is typical of the usurper and not in the least bit like the original Turkish Angora as found in the Ankara Zoo and all over Turkey. Only young Angoras have biggish upright ears and even then are not close-set.

  8. Congrats Michael. You couldn’t get a better response than that and from the right people in the right place too. The cat fancy seems a bit off, doesn’t it. I guess you have to be in it to really understand why it goes where it goes but outside perspective is valuable to any area of expertise. Expertise by definition is academically isolated from the rest of the world and in many professions if becomes distorted by and according to its own ideation. This to me is one of the greatest failings in the structure of modernity, and the reason why our culture is able to continue being so destructive. The outsiders opinion should be considered as gold to the insider. Then things would be kept in check and remain more sustainable. I have always felt this way from since I was very young. Reality needs to be shared by all – you can’t isolate yourself and create things that other people must experience in this life – you must ask them what they think. People inside professions – experts – become desensitized in their own subject matter. Better to be a master of all trades than a jack of one in my opinion.

    • I totally agree. As I say, I respect the views the people in the cat fancy but I do feel they have become too introspective as you suggest and breed for their own amusement and by their own standards while losing touch with the wider issues.

  9. Congratulations Michael for your article “THE REAL TURKISH ANGORA” being used as a reference and published in a Turkish magazine for the benefit of the local Turkish readers.This is a amazing power of the internet,exchange of knowledge and discussions without geographical boundaries, language or physical presence.”P.O.C” is now being used as a “Cats Encyclopedia” reference by other search groups and cat organizations.

    • Thanks Rudolph. I really like the people in Turkey who look after the Turkish Angora there in Ankara Zoo. This is the real cat world. Fancy cat breeding is for breeders.

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