Rabies vaccination: the law in conflict with veterinarian’s hippocratic oath
Feb 22nd 2017, Dr John Michael Robb DVM, at what appears to be a local government meeting, is presenting with passion and genuine concern the arguments against the current obligatory rabies vaccination protocols in the USA.
He is saying, in so many words, that the protocol is dangerous and the law on rabies vaccinations in the USA is in conflict with his hippocratic oath because the vaccination protocol can harm pets and even kill them. Shockingly the audience is disinterested. Apparently they do not have the same concern for animal welfare as Dr Robb.
Dr Robb is seeking change. He is forced under the law concerning rabies vaccinations to jeopardise the health of pets. As an excellent veterinarian he strongly objects to being placed in this dilemma. The video explains it all far better than I can in words…
There are technically no rules as to how many times you can vaccinate pets for the same disease.
“Over-vaccinating and the overdosing of pet vaccines has become a global issue. 5 lbs dogs are receiving the same dose of the rabies vaccine as 150 lbs Great Danes, and vets are now witnessing terrible side effects.” (Facebook post).
Dr Robb mentions titer testing in his presentation in the video. I have a short post on that:
M.E. King, a valued contributor to PoC says:
“Wonderful man. I spoke to him on the phone about what happened to Kitten last year. He not only answered my emails he gave me his phone number and talked to me. Hopefully we’ll all soon have a cost effective way to know if our pets need to be vaccinated.”
I trust her assessment. Dr Robb should be listened to. He is an excellent vet with high ethical standards. The profession needs people like him to represent American veterinarians.
See Dr Robb’s FB page:
If there is some connection to humans and pancreatic with flu vaccines there is no reason to assume that ISS are the worst thing that any vaccination can cause our cats.
As our pets live longer the cumulative effects of diet, exercise , weight and medications and vaccines start to play a more important role in their well being.
Probably fewer in the dog owners but with cats you will hear over and over I never vaccinated my cat for and they lived to be 20 years old. Not advocating negligent behavior but pet owners are starting to question medical decisions for their pets based on law not science.
Your Dr. Robb is a blathering moron. It doesn’t matter the quantity of vaccine that is given per weight. This is not like antibiotics or other medicines. They just have to be subjected to the dead or genetically-modified virus to trigger an immune response. It’s a matter of frequency, not quantity…..(remainder deleted because unnecessarily rude – Admin)
Yep, all your cats deserve to die. If for no other reason than the educational lesson it will afford you. LOL
Woody are you a veterinarian? Are you a scientist? If so tell us your qualifications and experience. Back up what you say with scientific evidence. Vaccines, as I understand it, contain other substances such as adjuvants which can injure the animal. The quantity of these other substances have an impact upon the health of the animal. Are you considering this?
Someone who is so insecure as to edit my words and twist them to what you want them to say deserves no further help — from anyone on earth. You are just low-life scum who never deserved to be born.
Michael, I don’t care for Woody and his hatred of cats, but I think he is right that vaccines are never given by weight. The amount of antigen is the same – it has to be enough to trigger the immune response, and it’s not affected by your weight. This is the same for humans. MMR vaccine or DTP vaccine amount is the same for babies and adults.
Now, the frequency is an issue with pets, especially cats. The only human vaccine given yearly is the flu, and it’s because flu virus mutates so much. The problem with pets is that there are very few studies about the duration of immunity, and the companies aren’t really interested in doing them. In the absence of real studies, Rabies is too serious a disease to risk, especially in pets that go outside. Would you really want to risk a certain death to your pet and possible risk of having to go through Rabies shots yourself (at best, or certain death) instead of a very small risk of a vaccine?
In terms of adjuvants, I don’t believe there is any evidence of harm in dogs from adjuvants specifically. Many of the claims of risks are unproven and overblown by anti-vaxxers. In cats, there is indeed a risk of FISS which may be higher for adjuvanted vaccines, but you can choose Purevax which isn’t adjuvanted. Keep in mind though that any injection into cats can cause FISS, vaccines are just given more often than, for example, steroids or antibiotics. But the issue appears to be the act of injection itself as well as local inflammation which can even be triggered by a hair getting inside during injection.
In terms of Rabies laws what I’d like to see is a) more vets adopting/giving people an option of 3-year Purevax for cats in spite of cost and the reasoning of “if we don’t do it every year, they’d not come for yearly exam” which I consider unethical. Laws normally go by the manufacturer recommendation, so 3-year Purevax is fine every three years in most states, the only issue is just vets’ reluctance and high cost. b) Laws taking pets’ lifestyle into account e.g. exceptions for indoor-only cats. This may be a bit tricky as the risk of a single cat’s getting outside depends on environment and cat’s personality which is difficult to ensure except for the owner. I’d probably still vaccinate my current two indoor-only cats for Rabies regularly because given their personality and the presence of an 87-year old father with Alzheimer’s at my home who can easily open the door when I least expect it and for no logical reason, I cannot guarantee that they’d not get out. If my father decides to open the entrance door or a sliding glass door to patio in the evening, a bat can fly in. A bat did fly in once into my parents’ garden apartment back when my mother was alive. They didn’t have pets then, and the bat didn’t have Rabies. But it’s possible – bats can fly into tiny holes. With my previous cat, I risked forgoing vaccinations after she was 7 – I was living alone at the time and her normal reaction to an open door was to run upstairs and hide under the bed, also by then she’s had 7 boosters already.
In general, I think Rabies is just too serious a disease to risk. I think at present if we want fewer vaccinations for our pets, we should look to reducing other vaccinations i.e. those for diseases that affect only pets and for which there are studies of longer immunity (like FVRCP for cats – maybe reducing it to kitten series and first year booster, especially in indoor-only cats).
Now educate him about this. The text he edited-out because it proved the Mr. Broad moron and all of his most devoted brain-dead followers dead WRONG.
“Now tell us again how a titer-test that triggers on the antibodies caused by the vaccine OR the live and now deadly virus (because the animal’s immunity wore-off) tells you if your animal is still being protected or not. ROFLMAO!”
In terms of titer testing, it’s not as simple. I had to look it up, actually, and depending on the disease and the animal, it may or may not be reliable i.e. in some cases the amount of antibodies in the blood correlates with immunity, and in some – it doesn’t. In humans, for many diseases, it seems to be reliable. Vets themselves get vaccinated for pre-exposure Rabies and then have titer tests every two years.
According to the article I’ve just read, in dogs, it appears to be reliable for DHPP vaccine, but it’s not shown to be reliable for Rabies and other vaccines. For cats, it doesn’t seem to be reliable at all.
So obviously, for a disease as lethal as Rabies, I’d not want to take a chance.
This is the very same reason that cats become reinfected with Toxoplasma gondii. Even having a high antibody count against T. gondii does not prevent reinfection. Tested and documented by many.
Wow. I’m now realizing that you edit EVERYONE’s words to fit your own ignorant agenda. What a pity you are that insecure (and so transparent about it at the same time).
This is probably why your site had devolved to the endless deceptive misinformation drivel that it’s become. Anyone who had more knowledge than you ever will was driven-off by your underhanded editing of everyone’s words. Nobody in their right mind would put up with someone as vile, manipulative, and underhanded as you. No wonder your cat ran away. Even it wanted to distance itself from your miserable personality.
Your statement is slanderous. I can sue you in defamation for that comment. It is a complete lie what you have stated. I amended your comment for the reason stated in the comment. As you say I am completely transparent about it. If you lie about me again like that I will sue you in defamation.
Thanks a lot Kitty. Apparently, vaccines for pets contain toxic chemicals such as aluminium, formaldehyde, phenol and thimerosal for example. I would have thought that the quantity of these chemicals makes the vaccine more or less potentially harmful. Therefore, on the face of it, the size of the animal is relevant and whether to do boosters is also relevant. What I’m saying is that Woody is incorrect.
Michael while I follow Dr. Robb and his view on over vaccination I don’t follow blindly. I don’t follow anyone blindly. Most of my reading suggests that vaccine induced illness, death and cancers are possibly cumulative probably due more to the contents of the vaccine than the actual antibody. As to injection site sarcoma that is widely accepted in cats however there is some evidence to say that vaccines can cause some long term side effects. I’m not talking about adverse events where there is a on the spot reaction. Reasonably this whole plate of nonsense could be cleared up by requiring vaccination every 5 years and a titer at 3. The problem with the same dose for a 10lb cat and a 100lb dog is the amount of additives in the vaccine. Vaccines have been a hot issue both human and pet for years now. If you took your child to the doctor you would ask do then need a booster. If you go to the vet your are mandated to vaccinate.
Pet owners should also shut up about cost. There are safer rabies vaccines if you don’t want to splurge the extra few bucks for you I don’t consider you part of this fight. I messages a mobile shot clinic and their response to the Purevax is pet owners won’t pay for it so they don’t keep it on hand.
While I agree that pets are boostered way too often, and it’d be great if we could do it every 5 years, and it’s a major issue in cats – which can react this way to ANY injection, much of the talk about additives is way overblown.
Take formaldehyde for example. There may be trace amounts of it in vaccines, but guess what – it’s produced in larger amounts by our own bodies as part of our natural metabolism, there is also more of it in a pear than vaccines. People confuse thimerosal (ethyl mercury) – an organic compound that is quickly eliminated from the body with methyl mercury which is toxic. I don’t have time to search for other stuff, but basically, don’t believe all you hear from anti-vaxxers. No, these additives don’t accumulate in the bodies, they are quickly eliminated.
With anything, the danger is in the dose. You do know that you can get water poisoning too, if you drink too much too fast, right? If you’ve never heard for it, google. In large enough dose, everything is dangerous.
The only pet vaccine mandated by law is Rabies, and it’s because it can spread to humans and is deadly. Vets, by the way, get vaccinated for it too. Yes, the immunity from the vaccine may last longer, but without serious long term studies, there is no way to say for sure.
As to titer testing, I read that depending on the disease and animal, it may not be reliable i.e. the amount of antibody in the blood doesn’t correlate with protection. This is one article that talks about it, I am sure it’s possible to find studies: http://web-dvm.net/are-vaccine-titers-accurate-measures-of-dog-and-cat-immunity-against-disease-can-we-use-them-to-determine-what-vaccines-a-dog-or-cat-needs/ – especially last two paragraphs.
There is a great deal of disagreement over titers. Our pets are living longer and the adverse effects of over vaccination are starting to manifest more frequently. Remember just a few years ago they denied at the top of their lungs that ISS were a real thing.
There is no safe vaccine there are safer vaccines.
There is no evidence that illnesses people attribute to vaccines are actually caused by vaccinations. Why are you so sure about your pets? Now, I do agree that pets are given vaccinations way too often which is why I plan to stop FVRCP now that my cats had their kitten series and one year booster, and as they are indoor-only, the only other vaccine they get is Purevax Rabies, but I am not taking my chances on Rabies. Really, if you are so concerned about adjuvants, why don’t you get Purevax? It has no adjuvants.
As to FISS – maybe some vets failed to mention it, but the scientific community have never denied it. In fact, I read about it over 20 years ago, even before internet when we still used usenet newsgroups, VAS, as it was then called, was discussed. VAS was first recognized in 1991 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine-associated_sarcoma, and Vaccine-Associated Sarcoma task force was created in 1996. Sure, some vets may not have followed the recommendations of less frequent vaccinations in cats, but my vet did even when my previous cat was still a kitten, almost 20 years ago.
Again, FISS in cats can be caused by any injection, not just vaccination. Sure, there is more inflammation after adjuvanted vaccines – the whole purpose of aluminium adjuvant in cat’s old Rabies vaccine to cause stronger reaction and hence more immunity with killed vaccine, but there are cases of FISS after non-adjuvanted recombinant vaccine (Purevax) as well, and it’s not even certain that the rate is fewer. There are cases of FISS after long-acting antibiotics and steroids. There are a couple of cases after microchips.
There is no medical intervention that has no risk, in fact, anything in life has risks. Antibiotics I am now taking for early Lyme disease have risks. But the risk is minuscule compared to risk of the diseases. Yes, I’d love to vaccinate my cat less often. But in the absence of studies that prove longer term immunity for a disease like Rabies, and given that titers aren’t reliable in cats, how can the local governments take a risk?
A great number of veterinarians still don’t follow recommended protocols.
Notice I said safer vaccines not safe.
The core issue now is the insane need for pet owners to drag their animals everywhere and expose them to everything and be negligent in even getting the initial core vaccines. Pets kept in their own yards/homes are almost zero risk for rabies until we try and go for a walk on a public path and are assaulted right and left by dogs running loose despite leash laws along with the contaminated feces they deposit on the train and where wildlife comes in contact. I know for a fact my demented SIL does not S/N and does not vaccinate which means her cats that eat vermin infested with parasites and disease are crapping in my driveway making it likely for one of us to accidently track something in. If I threw the contents of my cats litter box in the middle of the road or my neighbors front yard or carried a bag of it up to the nearest picnic area and dumped in on the table, seats and surrounding area I’d get a fine before I got back to the car. The 1 and the 3 year rabies are exactly the same. There is no reason to be vaccinating any dog or cat more than once every 3 years yet many vets still do.
Companies that make the vaccines have played fast and loose in how they classify what is an adverse event. Almost all evidence for the long term side effects is anecdotal because if pet owners realized how they are not only over vaccination but being ripped off while doing it there would be an even bigger backlash over this. Even worse and this was without Dr. Robb pet owners are spreading the word when a dog or cat gets sick or dies right after a vaccination. So by refusing to address this now there are going to be MORE unvaccinated pets.
If you want to truly protect your cat from any deadly feline-spread or other zoonotic virus…..[deleted as rude and insulting]
F off Woody. You are disliked and comprehensively rejected because you are so unpleasant. S. Gibbs is banned. Why don’t you try and do what is almost impossible for you: drop the aliases. Be your nasty self. Come out from under your damp stone.
Great! I hope all your fucking cats die because you are a useless piece of shit who is intimidated by FACTS!
I’m going to publish your insulting and rude response to tell the world how insulting and rude you are. If that is the best you can do, you are a very poor, uneducated, arrogant and ignorant person.
Michael put that dirty troll down and go wash your hands.
Yes, I have. I feel that I have to publish some of what he says in the interests of transparency, honesty and fairness. If I delete or ban trolls 100% then they will argue that I am presenting a one-sided discussion and that I am pushing an agenda. I do therefore give them a bit of airtime and then when they go too far I ban them and delete further attempts to comment,
He is speaking up for what he knows is wrong regardless of the consequence to himself both personally and professionally.