Thai Cats Are Not Siamese Cats

BY A VISITOR

They are cats with unknown ancestors and are crossed with other breeds like the Korat.

Read the TICA registration information published online.http://www.tica.org/members/publications/reg_rules.pdf pages 28 and 29.

All that is required to register a pointed cat as Thai is to have three TICA judge look at it and say it conforms to the standard.

The GCCF allows kittens with one Korat parent to be registered as THAI. They also REQUIRE genetic testing of THAI cats for gangliosidosis a autosomal recessive disease in the breed that causes fatal progressive brain disease.

http://www.gccfcats.org/regpols/koratregpol.pdf

Siamese are NOT an allowed cross in the TICA or GCCF.

Aonymous

Hi… yes, officially Thai cats are not Siamese cats that is why they are called Thai cats. Thanks for your thoughts by the way.

But they look like Siamese cats! They fit in between the traditional Siamese and the modern Siamese.

Someone made up a new breed when it wasn’t needed. It is claimed to be the original Siamese cat. But this is a slightly nonsensical debate.

We know what the original Siamese looked like and what it is. The importation from Siam is well documented.

I don’t think there was a good reason to create the Thai cat, another cat breed that further complicates the Siamese cat. The poor people outside the cat fancy must be terribly confused.

Read lots more on Thai Cats (new window).

Michael

Please comment here using either Facebook or WordPress (when available).

I’ve got TICA Thai cats who are dual registered as Siamese and have pedigrees going back to the early Siamese. In fact the majority of TICA Thai ancestry is from very long lines of Siamese in the West. They most certainly are Siamese. And TICA Thai certainly can be bred to Siamese & the offspring shown, so I am not sure where “Anonymous” got the idea it is a non permitted outcross.

There have been a small number of imports from Thailand in order to provide more genetic diversity. What is the difference between what the early Siamese breeders did in importing cats from Siam / Thailand, and what breeders are doing now by importing a few cats from there to expand the gene pool?

Look at the lovely Ch. Prestwick Perak born in the 1920s. Her pedigree goes back only one generation on her mother’s side. Her mother Puteh was an import (and the foundation dam of the famous Prestwick cattery). Does this make those early Prestwick cats bred by Mrs. Hindley “not Siamese”?
I guess according to this person’s argument, Ch Wankee is even less Siamese since he himself was an import.

I would rather preserve the genuine pointed cats of ancestry from Siam/ Thailand than pointed cats mixed with a big dose of Western ancestry like many of the cats sold as “Traditional Siamese” in the USA. (That’s happened with many “Thai cats” in Europe too. but in both cases people who want to preserve the real thing need to be careful who they work with. and buyers need to be careful where they get a kitten.)

It’s true there is a range of type in original type of Siamese but people who have been to Thailand to catteries there (including an Australian Siamese breeder & judge who wrote an article that appeared in some cat magazines several months ago ) describe & have photos of cats who mostly look like the TICA Thai type. They’re not typically round headed cats. and not cobby. The Thai standard in TICA was based to a great extent on those Wichienmaat cats, with consultation with breeders in Thailand. And what I find very cool is how much they look like Old Style Siamese who had been bred for over a century in the West. There’s been no effort to change them into something quite differnt — either to exaggerate breed type & make them more extremely angular and “refined” OR to react in the opposite direction and breed for a very round, stocky, plushy sort of cat.

It’s unfortunate that GCCF allowed Korat breeders to use the name Thai for their pointed cats since it was already used since 1990 in Europe.
But this does not mean that a cat registered as a Thai in GCCF is a Thai in TICA.
It would be nice if GCCF could end up changing that name, since allowing it was really contrary to the spirit of the World Cat Congress. And now that some GCCF (Old Style) Siamese breeders in the UK are starting to dual register & show cats in TICA as Thai, I’m sure they would prefer if it were changed to avoid confusion.

One advantage in the Thai being shown is it could provide more of a framework for mentoring new breeders.
And it gives people who want a Siamese of the older type a chance to see the cats at a show — both competition shows, and pet expos like “Meet the Breeds” in NYC – so people can find out this kind of Siamese has never gone away.

I also don’t quite understand Anon writing about Gangliosidosis as if this is some problem solely in Korats, or in recent imports from Thailand. One gene for was already recognized in Siamese and domestic shorthairs as well as Korats ( GL 1) Another gene was found for it in Korats GL2 … and now in European Burmese. Much of the ancestry of Burmese in the West is really Siamese. So it wouldn’t be surprising if that gene too is also already in Siamese but not identified yet. Maybe Siamese breeders should be doing the tests for both like Korat breeders?

Reply ↓

Comments

Thai Cats Are Not Siamese Cats — 6 Comments

Louis on May 1, 2016 at 5:03 pm said:
Thank you Michael
Louis
(Not Louise) lol
?
Reply ↓
Cheri on August 1, 2012 at 10:36 pm said:
I’ve got TICA Thai cats who are dual registered as Siamese and have pedigrees going back to the early Siamese. In fact the majority of TICA Thai ancestry is from very long lines of Siamese in the West. They most certainly are Siamese. And TICA Thai certainly can be bred to Siamese & the offspring shown, so I am not sure where “Anonymous” got the idea it is a non permitted outcross.
There have been a small number of imports from Thailand in order to provide more genetic diversity. What is the difference between what the early Siamese breeders did in importing cats from Siam / Thailand, and what breeders are doing now by importing a few cats from there to expand the gene pool?
Look at the lovely Ch. Prestwick Perak born in the 1920s. Her pedigree goes back only one generation on her mother’s side. Her mother Puteh was an import (and the foundation dam of the famous Prestwick cattery). Does this make those early Prestwick cats bred by Mrs. Hindley “not Siamese”?
I guess according to this person’s argument, Ch Wankee is even less Siamese since he himself was an import.
I would rather preserve the genuine pointed cats of ancestry from Siam/ Thailand than pointed cats mixed with a big dose of Western ancestry like many of the cats sold as “Traditional Siamese” in the USA. (That’s happened with many “Thai cats” in Europe too. but in both cases people who want to preserve the real thing need to be careful who they work with. and buyers need to be careful where they get a kitten.)
It’s true there is a range of type in original type of Siamese but people who have been to Thailand to catteries there (including an Australian Siamese breeder & judge who wrote an article that appeared in some cat magazines several months ago ) describe & have photos of cats who mostly look like the TICA Thai type. They’re not typically round headed cats. and not cobby. The Thai standard in TICA was based to a great extent on those Wichienmaat cats, with consultation with breeders in Thailand. And what I find very cool is how much they look like Old Style Siamese who had been bred for over a century in the West. There’s been no effort to change them into something quite differnt — either to exaggerate breed type & make them more extremely angular and “refined” OR to react in the opposite direction and breed for a very round, stocky, plushy sort of cat.
It’s unfortunate that GCCF allowed Korat breeders to use the name Thai for their pointed cats since it was already used since 1990 in Europe.
But this does not mean that a cat registered as a Thai in GCCF is a Thai in TICA.
It would be nice if GCCF could end up changing that name, since allowing it was really contrary to the spirit of the World Cat Congress. And now that some GCCF (Old Style) Siamese breeders in the UK are starting to dual register & show cats in TICA as Thai, I’m sure they would prefer if it were changed to avoid confusion.
One advantage in the Thai being shown is it could provide more of a framework for mentoring new breeders.
And it gives people who want a Siamese of the older type a chance to see the cats at a show — both competition shows, and pet expos like “Meet the Breeds” in NYC – so people can find out this kind of Siamese has never gone away.
I also don’t quite understand Anon writing about Gangliosidosis as if this is some problem solely in Korats, or in recent imports from Thailand. One gene for was already recognized in Siamese and domestic shorthairs as well as Korats ( GL 1) Another gene was found for it in Korats GL2 … and now in European Burmese. Much of the ancestry of Burmese in the West is really Siamese. So it wouldn’t be surprising if that gene too is also already in Siamese but not identified yet. Maybe Siamese breeders should be doing the tests for both like Korat breeders?
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- Michael on August 2, 2012 at 3:34 am said:
  Great comment. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I think it is good to go back to basics and import afresh because selective breeding in the West seems to distance the cat breed from its roots and original state.
  I also believe that the Siamese cat should be simplified. There has been a certain amount of uncontrolled expansion of a once well known and understood cat breed that the public recognised.
  I agree the Thai is similar to the original Siamese. It appears to be similar to the Old-style Siamese too. But I don’t think there was a single unique appearance of the original Siamese from Siam.
  I tried to separate the various types out on this page.
  Reply ↓
  - Cheri on August 2, 2012 at 9:01 am said:
    Thanks. I absolutely agree there was no one single type. This seems clear from looking at both historic photos and descriptions. I also doubt there was some sharp delineation between “2 types”, but rather a range of type, although generally more elongated, with more pronounced muzzles, than the typical European cats ( based on comments at the time emphasizing the difference, and based on the appearance of the cats in Thailand today, and the genetic research showing they have probably been essentially unchanged for centuries.)
    But no, of course not all identical.
    I’d love it to be simplified too but I’m afraid that is not going to happen. You have people aiming at opposite extremes. And all the fake ones have made it even more confusing.
    Reply ↓
- Louis on May 1, 2016 at 3:23 pm said:
  I know this post is 4 years old, so possibly impossible.
  But I found Cheri’s post very informative.
  I can confirm that GCCF in uk sees old style Siamese as pet only and further more by allowing the name Thai to go to the Korat has made it difficult for the few breeders of the old type to promote their cats.
  I’m aiming to start my breeding programme in future and have been talking to breeders for advice.
  At present I’m inclined to think i shall register my lines with TICA alone and breed Thais in cooperation with established American breeders.
  If Cheri is still on this forum, I’d appreciate further comments and advice.
  Many thanks
  L
  Reply ↓
  - Michael Broad on May 1, 2016 at 4:55 pm said:
    Thanks Louise for visiting and commenting. I think this post is more than four years old because the date of the creation of the post is incorrect as the site was moved to another server and the dates reset.
    Reply ↓