by Michael
(London, UK)
I ask, were the Turkish Angora and Turkish Van the same cat in Turkey during the years well before the cat fancy started? I mean in the 15th to 19th century. They are now two distinct breeds and it is said by the best authorities that they originate from different parts of Turkey. The Turkish Angora comes from a region called Anatolia which includes Turkey. So does the Turkish Van. Except the Turkish Van comes specifically, it is said, from the Lake Van region of Turkey while the Turkish Angora comes from the same area generally but specifically the mountainous area of Ankara. The two places are over 500 miles apart.
Note: I respect the views of Lisa James in her article, The Turkish Van and the Turkish Angora and welcome her comments and posts.
I am going to challenge that way of thinking on the basis of several trains of thought. And I am doing this to simply challenge the accepted way of thinking but not in a disrespectful way.
Firstly, in the say 17th century, all cats were moggies. They were just cat companions, feral cats or in between. This means that cat types were naturally less distinct from region to region and type to type as breeders had not at that time delineated the breeds through selective breeding. There were no formal breeds in those days. Although there were informal breeds if that is an acceptable way of describing them. I am thinking of, for example, the Manx cat.
In Britain, for example, there were the forerunners of the British Shorthair. But the cats of that time in Britain were not like the classic purebred British Shorthair now, with the flattish face. They were “ordinary” cats in every way. The current appearance was developed by breeding. The first point that I am making is that I suggest that the distinct but relatively slight difference between the Turkish Van and Angora that is visible today has been developed by the cat fancy. I argue that it was not that way hundreds of years ago. The Wikipedia author says:
…And even at present, when it was confirmed by the geneticist that Vans and Angoras are definitely separate breeds, Vans are sometimes confused with Turkish Angoras, although a side-by-side comparison reveals vastly different characteristics.
But the author makes no references to substantiate the genetic differences and I mean that there would have to be genetic differences that can be proved to originate in the 16th century and earlier. This, I suggest, can only be carried out in Turkey and I know of no research. Further the difference now in appearance is not stark and is due to breeding by the cat fancy and not the origins.
There is no reason to believe that a distance of 500 miles can make a difference in the basic genetic characteristics of a moggie cat in one country. Also Lake Van is over 5,000 feet above sea level in what might be called similar terrain to the “mountains” near Ankara. In fact the area around Ankara is more hilly than mountainous.
In addition, there are single wild cats species that have ranges that cover two continents, many thousands of miles and many countries that substantiates this contention. I refer to the Puma as one example. Other examples are the leopard, Eurasian lynx and jaguar. There are more. It is far more likely that the moggie of Turkey in the 17th century was similar throughout Turkey.
I also say that both the Turkish Van and Angora were imported into Europe at similar times for the very reason that they were the same cat or very nearly the same cat. This would fly in the face of the accepted history that the Turkish Angora was imported hundreds of years before the Van. But the accepted history is harder to accept than the commonsense argument.
I refer for example to a painting from the late 1700s Paris, France of a cat that is either a French moggie or a Turkish Van import or a bit of both. If it is a French moggie the Turkish Van is not unique to Turkey and if it is an import from Turkey it substantiates my ideas. You can see this painting and another discussed on this page: Jean-Honoré Fragonard Le Chat Angora.
Above: Marguerite Gérard – La dame avec son chat (selected section on left) and on right is a modern Turkish Van – photo copyright Helmi Flick – please respect copyright.
If I am correct, in answer to the question, were the Turkish Angora and Turkish Van the same cat, the answer is yes, more or less, and the cat fancy has made two cats out of one moggie. This is not a criticism of the cat fancy. It is normal and to be expected. There are over 70 mainstream cat breeds. The cat fancy has created more breeds in the same way any business creates more brands (
for example Purina has many brands of cat food). It is just the way the free market operates.
Many will be horrified by this train of thought. That’s OK. They are just thoughts.
From Were the Turkish Angora and Turkish Van the same cat to Turkish Angora Cat
Denise,
You send a nice message, despite our differences we are all humans. Same with cats – more similar than different.
However we don’t agree with statement: ”Most of them are mixed of course as they live one the street.”
If cat lives on the street (not only street there are many places cat can live!), why it means it is mixed? Mixed with what? In Turkey pets sector is very new. People don’t throw their expensive Persians and Siamese to the streets. Those which freely roam are actually very pure Anatolian cats and we have some DNA evidence to back this up.
”There are still special cats in the certain areas like Van and Ankara Angora”
You say stray cats are mixed so what are Van and Angora cats – not from street? From the another planet? They are the same STREET CATS. Anatolian species to be exact.
”yet there are also originals some of which are protected by the University of Van, in city of Van”
Van University collected all white cats, it has nothing to do with the breed Van cat, which after all doesn’t exist. The breeding program in Van University is very unscientific and ridiculous. They don’t bother to test their cats genetically in order to be sure they don’t have the same ”dirty street cats” which roam near to their ”white breed” cages! If they did DNA test their idea of special Van cat would explode like a bubble, you can be sure!
”one needs to gather better information based on scientific research”
Did you bother to gather that scientific information? No? How can you judge what was said then? If you ask us we do have that needed scientific information to show you that Van and Ankara cat doesn’t exist and all cats in Turkey came from the same gene pool. They are Anatolian cats.
Advice: Don’t judge something you know nothing about.
Kind Regards
The Angora at Association, Turkey
Hello,
I have an odd eye Van cat too. She is one of the cutest cat ever I have seen in my life. I had read about Ankara cat and Van cat phenomena and I read messages above also. Some says they are the same type of cats; like a cat food; in the origin they are all the same; cat food. I am very sorry to hear that; as I can say, we are all human too; yet, we have some differences between us, don’t we? Such as American, Chinese, Turkish, Greek, etc. and we also have locational differences inside the country for example northern Turkey, southern Turkey, eastern Turkey, and etc. Otherwise, our lives would have been so different. Am I not right? Yet, in the origin we are all human beings; originated again from human beings.
Yes, I agree that there are a lot of cats on the street of Turkey. Most of them are mixed of course as they live one the street. Yet, on the other hand there are still special cats in the certain areas like Van and Ankara Angora. Yes again, there are mixed breeds there too; yet there are also originals some of which are protected by the University of Van, in city of Van.
Making statements based on hand full of information is not enough as we all know; one needs to gather better information based on scientific research etc. As I said, we are all human at the end, but we definitely have differences. I wish people had thought we were all the same coming from one in the origin; I would be happiest person ever; then people wouldn’t discriminate one and other; we would have lived in peace (I’m only talking based on our nations of course, not the other differences).
I hope I didn’t offend anyone; if so I really apologize for this as I didn’t have this kind of intention at all.
Best regards,
-Denise
Hi Denise, you haven’t offended anyone. Your thoughts are very sensible regarding the fact that we are all from the same source. At the very beginning of mankind there was no racism, no nationalism, no differences in color or culture. No religion. We were all the same. There were still arguments though 😉