Mountain Lions Are Dangerous Creatures

well it seems even though its been a year since last post before my first i brought it alive again. lol. even if it did get a little off topic.

but from what i can tell we are all in agreement on the vital role our wilderness plays.i hope that in years to come more and more will adopt a more "wild" lifestyle and get out and experiance all the beauty and wonder that it has to offer. and it may as well start with us and may it be passed down through the generations.

You're not the only ones, guys. In the city, I get strung out and neurotic, but if you give me some time in the wilderness, I become a completely different person. It's usually day 3 that my heart and soul finally sink into that restful state.

I used to spend nearly every day hiking through Arizona's deserts, growing up. When my family moved to the middle of man's concrete jungle, my life changed dramatically, and I didn't have that solitude any more. I'd always felt at peace in the wilderness, and by comparison, the city felt wholly and entirely hostile. It just wasn't my cup of tea.

Now, as an adult, I get out whenever I can. In fact, I've been meaning to put aside some money to take advantage of the crummy housing market, but I just can't seem to stop myself from taking trips out into nature. Lakes, rivers, oceans, forests, mountains, meadows, and deserts... if the city were hell, they would be heaven.

I say what I say about nature and man because every time I head out there, I can feel, in the deepest recesses of my soul, that I'm a part of it. Leaving it is painful. In fact, I think the only reason I do leave is so I can earn enough money both to survive and to go back. Regardless of our place on the food chain, we are a part of that food chain as much as any apex predator is. When we die, we are always consumed by something unless cremated, be it predators, scavengers, insects, or micro-organisms. We can try to isolate ourselves from nature--physically, emotionally, and philosophically--but no amount of trying will make it happen. Nature nurtured us into becoming who and what we are, as we've evolved along-side every other living thing on this planet, right down to the very first single-celled organisms. Even men and cougars have many common ancestors.

But I'm getting off topic. Hope you understand how it all ties together for me.

hi jeff.

i enjoyed reading your post. i too have issues both spiritually and mentally and as much as the wilderness calms it down. it also brings them out front. just today for example some things from the past caugh up to me that i hadnt thought about in years and felt a peice of the marble that is my heart get chipped away. i feel freer out in the bush or on the ocean then anywhere else. my personal opinions are derived from personal experiance however as facts can be twisted and manipulated by those who originated them.

personally i have no love for the gov't. or any kind of "civil"isation. but i dont want to get into THAT.

but i just wanted to say that, although i may still be young, i understand what you mean by the peace and serenity that comes with being out in the wilds. but i also feel that they will bring out the best and worst in people, depending on your situation and experiances. im actually thinking next year i may spend the entire year out and away from people and actually work on my issues. i just cant do it around people becauuse the only way to forgive and heal is to cry. and the majority of people are ignorant enough to others to make something thats suppose to be spiritually refreshing and turn it into a bad thing. but im getting off topic.

my own personal contribution to prevservation comes from my working life. im a hunting/fishing guide and will even find work as park mainteniance. 1 day id actually like to buy myself a little chunk of a park somewhere remote where hiking is still allowable and basically just come in behind them and clean up thier mess, if you know what i mean. but to purchase even a small lot is expensive.

im also an avid hiker, canoer, no trace camper, etc.. and without my wilderness lifestyle id be a miserable old grizzly (this is kinda how i wound up with a nickname "the grizz") who hates everything and everyone around him.

so in conclusion, bless the wilderness, bless the wildlife, and bless you for showing that im not the only one who NEEDS the wilderness.

i am a fervent hiker,camper, hunting,fishing, canoeing enthusiast. I attribute this both to genetics and familial influence.I could not survive without the out of doors. i am also a service connected disabled veteran that has the physical ailments of being a paratrooper, ranger trained light infantry soldier. I also have chronic PTSD from exposure to combat or combat situations. If i could not find solitude in a hiking trail or in a canoe exploring some unknown ( to me anyway)Northwoods trail,be it animal or manmade,or paddle some river or lake with a pole and the sound of gulls,mallards, geese or loons I feel I could not spiritually survive. If i could not look upon deer, coyotes,a soaring red tailed hawk or blue heron, my spirit could not be stilled. If I could not come home to a cat or dog welcoming me I wouldn't think I was important. My life parrelels that and is no different than many in this hectic,fast paced,consumer driven society. I am by no means a Theodore Roosevelt,John Muir,or for that matter Henry David Thoreau,however,they are my better examples.I am in no means a cat expert, nor do I want to be. I do know that when I give my cats love and respect,it is returned ten fold. If my end should come from a Cougar attack because I am it's prey,Or a bear whose cubs it feels i threatened I will feel it was a good death. I love and have great respect for Earth Mother and her inhabitants. I have seen the good side of humanity as well as the ugly.I tolerate both sides because I to have the good and bad that are eternally hungry,and need to be fed. I just try judiciously to feed the good. But the bad has no fear of starvation. Any species of wildlife will attack and kill if it is threatened or in need of food. Humanity will to. The difference with humanity is it will kill for sport or pleasure. If a wild animal does,it is an abberation.I, like Daniel, like to study the facts before I form my opinions. For me it is a prerequisite to voting. I also understand that most wildlife funding comes not from Gov't or large grants and donations but from fishing and hunting licenses,Sportsman/women organizations,fees and registrations.I appreciated the Cougar comments from Mountain man,Kathy and Daniel. I just thought i would add my humble comments. My pet cats depend on me for their livelihood,although they feel this is their lair. They keep it free of spiders,flies,ants. They also give an amount of joy and affection that is very hard to find "out there"

hello kathy.

well to say that we dont get eaten by animals is false. it happens regularly, especially here in canada, but mostly due to human error(like quietly hiking down a path and startling a bear on a fresh kill). no animals dont pollute and pollution is the biggest killer of our world as it does eat away at our ozone. and we do need to learn to share but it is not in humn nature to and cannot be expected. the most that can be done is to spread awareness. Some of what we take IS givin back but mostly only with the logging. we cut down trees and they get replanted(at least up here). things like mining is extremely hurtful to our crust, but unfortanately is, at least in some ways, a necessary evil. just as pine beetles and forest fires are needed to repopulate areas where the wildlife has moved off due to overgrown evergreens sucking life out of all the shrubs that grow there. if it werent for mining we wouldnt have things like knives, axes, frying pans and other cookware, etc...

the need for preserves and the awareness of that need is growing though. there are areas up here now where the preserves are gaining size and the areas of no hunting or logging is allowed.

im afraid i have to say it but farms arent good for our enviroment either. it causes excess build up of things like e-coli due to the concentrated amount of feces in an area. but also without them, especially in this day and age, mankind would starve without. personally i wish i could have been born 300 or so years ago. i wouldve loved to have seen the old wilderness when it was still MOSTLY prestine.unfortanatly as a norwegian i probably wouldnt have seen north america in that time as my ancestors didnt come over till about 100yrs ago.

but i still love getting out into the deep untouched wilds and drinking from the fresh glacial rivers. mm mmm.

in your community or band something that you could do would be to find others with the same desires to bring about awareness. you dont have to be radical about it. but just create a group who will discuss pros and cons and even get in touch with your gov't. about the immediate issues at hand. just remember there are certain topics in which to avoid that cause an excessive amount of controversy as these things are frowned upon, but rather bring into light the needs of our wilderness and wildlife. you wont be able to stop production but if you play your cards right you may be able to slow it down some...at least in your immediate area.

yes we ARE, in my opinion, the worst thing for our planet. but theres no reason that we HAVE to be.

but anyways i am a bit busy at the moment. i will keep in touch as long as people are trying to reach me.

Thanks mountain man my native American ancestors and I thank you for your opionions. I agree with you that man will be his own demise. Thaere has been no greater example of that as the area that I live in. I live about 50 miles north of Chicago. I grew up on a dairy farm that no more is in existence. As a matter of fact there arent any left around here because all the Dairy cattle are locked up in factory milk farms. Animals have no say in how they are treated by humans. We exploit them just like we do many other creatures, like the pig. There are no farm fields, farms, farm animals any where around here. All the people from Chicago wanted to live in the country so they all came out here. They put in many new trains and bus routes to accomodate all these peoples. aNow there is only subdivision after subdivision. There is no hint of the farms and fields that used to be here. The only woods that exist are the ones protected by the forest preserves and there arent very many of them. So the demise of much wildlife that once roamed this area. I really dont see how we can be any good for the ecosystem or part of it for that matter as we hollow out the earth for all that it can give to us. I dont see wildlife polluting the air although I have smelled a factory pig farm and it wasnt too pleasant. But then there are no fields for the pigs to be let out in because there are subdivisions all around it. I wonder where our food comes from cause I know none of it comes from around here where I live. It used to. After the county fair you used to be able to go to a local restaraunt and eat some of the prize winning steer. That doesnt happen anymore. Not too many animals at the county fair anymore except the petting zoo. Now we are a suburb of chicago and we used to be unincorprated. Now you cant even ride a bike around here. I love all animals and believe we should share the planet. How can we be part of a food chain when nothing eats us. I dont see us contributing to the ecosystem only taking away. Im glad I live in the woods next to a lake and a forest preserve. But only 4 blocks away is the town. 2 blocks off the main highway and its peaceful and quiet. Mankind doesnt just survive we dominate. Take and dont give back. In native American teaching the cougar shows us that there are times to be gentle and times to assert your power forcefully. This is what the cougar teaches.

well im someone whos lived his life by the rules of the wilds. dedicated it to the study and understanding of wildlife, wilderness, ecosystems, etc... and i take my viewpoint on the human race through my experiances with them.

so lets agree to disagree on the role of humanity because no ones gonna change my viewpoint as im sure no one will change yours.

but on subject just remeber that our world is to be treated with respect and integrity if we are to survive in it.

and it has been a pleasure speaking to someone with enough intelligence to understand.

Don't worry, I'm not looking for an argument, either. You're not talking crazy or making contradictory statements, so it's all good.

I agree that other animals have natural strengths; however, man's natural strength drives us to greatness, and no other animal on Earth--at least that we know of--possesses it. It's the instinctual need and aptitude for organization. We excel in observation, analysis, big picture planning, and creation.

It's those traits that make us superior to other animals, even in the areas where they excel. The dolphin may be adept at math, but our instincts led us to create computers that put the dolphins' math skills to shame. Furthermore, the dolphin has no understanding of calculus, differential equations, or even something as basic as algebra. Our instinct to decipher, understand, and construct, has lead to an immeasurable dominance over the creature in a field that it is apparently (I'm taking your word on it) quite good at. We can even use mathematics to accurately predict the position of electrons... our cell phones are all built on that principle.

See, my point is not that animals do not possess rifles or calculators, it's that they do not understand them and could not, even in a million years, even dream of producing them. It's our instincts, our intellects, the particular mixture of traits that nature has given us, that allow us to do everything we do. Bears don't have rifles because they lack the fundamental traits required to develop them, so a bear having a rifle would be unnatural. A man with a rifle, a calculator, a space shuttle, or even a nuclear bomb... that's nature at work.

I think you underestimate our impact on nature. The ecosystems we occupy would change dramatically if we were to disappear. Think about domestic animals, land development, pollution, etc--and all of the ways nature has already adapted to it all. For better or worse, we are an active part of nearly every ecosystem on earth. Would the ecosystems survive? Absolutely, just in a different state than they are in at this very moment. But they would survive regardless of which species died off or appeared--just in a different state, same as with us. Nature will always find a balance. To me, that's the beauty of it.

I suppose I have trouble differentiating between nature and man, and that's probably why we disagree. If you look at the world as though a highway is as natural as coral or a termite mound, it's easier to see how humanity plays a huge role in the Earth's ecosystem. No matter where you go, we've had and are having an impact. We're even changing the Earth's climate, and the chemical composition of its atmosphere, much like plants and other lifeforms have before us. If we vanish, everything changes.

Anyway, it's been nice talking to you. Feel free to reply if you want to continue this, but I respect your beliefs and your right to them.

well for the man being on top. in the topic of intelligence. again not looking to cause an argument but just stating my opinion and this will be off topic as there wont be a mention of cougars. but if you look at the behaviours of animals they know more about our world then we can hope to. what we dont understand we destroy and what we cant destroy we ignore. but animal instinct even is far superior to our own. they know what the weathers gonna do days before we do even with all our technology, as an example. even mathmatically dolphins, for example, are able to multiply and add better than we can without our calculators. just because we have the technology doesnt make us smarter then them. just more advanced.

for the top of the foodchain thing. dont you think if a grizzly or a cougar could use a rifle that they would. i believe if you were to try and teach an animal how to use a firearm they can learn to. but why would we do that. we might be their target. because as i said. we are the only species on this planet that our ecosystem can survive without and would flourish without us.

but thats just your penny for my thoughts.

Hi, Mountain Man. It doesn't sound to me like we're in disagreement. I respect the cougar, and I don't condone killing them when there are other options. The only message I meant to convey was that while, yes, they are beautiful and majestic creatures, they are also quite capable and willing of killing even fully grown adult males when they think it's in their best interest--which, on occasion, even the healthy cougars do.

My "debate" with Kathy got out of hand, and that's where philosophical questions about nature vs man came into play. As far as Mr. Smith goes, I personally think he had it wrong. In my opinion, we're more like fungi than viruses. We don't infect--we colonize, extract resources, and build structures. It is our nature, and as such, I believe that it is mother nature in action.

It's for that reason that I believe we are, in fact, at the top of the food chain. Depriving us of our guns or hunting parties is like depriving a cougar of its claws and fangs, or a bee of its swarm. Without their natural weapons, they are nothing, and of course, without ours, so are we. But with them, no creature on this planet, aside, perhaps, from microscopic organisms, could or can stand against us. It's just too dangerous for any other species to consider us a source of food, because when we get angry enough, we have a tendency to drive entire species to the brink of extinction.

We are nature's most dangerous and prolific macroscopic creatures. We inhabit or routinely explore every biosphere Earth has to offer, and in the past century, we have even begun pushing out toward the stars. We are the only species capable or willing to attempt to save or destroy entire other species, and we venture into harsh kill-or-be-killed environments for entertainment or excitement alone. As Earth's creatures go, man is truly the most magnificent.

That is my opinion.

now to look at it from the animal perspective. WE are the invaders upon their land. and they have as much, if not more, right to it then we do. but we must expand if we are to survive as a species.

on the topic of cougars. they are not meddlesome. they will usually try to avoid us and aside from sign such as scat and scratches we would never know they are there. but there are instances when they can be a potential threat to you and yours. hunting is meant for conservation of these animals and to control population levels which is why there are bag limits.

on the few occasions where relocation or killing of these animal are vital are when they start making there presence known. start showing themselves and giving off screams and shrills which indicate that they feel threatened by our presence and as such we should feel threatened by theirs. when cougars start making there way into towns and cities in search of food, particularly in winter when food is scarce, or start showing up on the doorstep of those who live in more rural areas, especially families with small children, when "taking out" these animals come into play. they are usually old, injured or starving when they start doing so.

in these situations it is recommended contacting a convservation officer, game warden, or animal control who are trained to deal with such situations. however the more remote you live the longer it will take them to arrive and as such you may have to take matters into your own hands.

the same goes not only for cougars but other predators as well, such as bears, wolves, and other such predators.

to finish off. as i have said before most predators will not bother a human as they see us as threats and most of the time you will never even know their there. if you do see one treat it with awe and respect, snap photos if you can. and let them continue on their way. if one poses a problem such as threatening you and yours call a CO and they will deal with it humanely and appropriatly. in the rare, specific situations you may have to deal with it yourself. but never take one of these creatures lightly as it could cost you your life.

regards from the deep woods, may you find the beauty in nature and its wonders. and learn to respect the habitats that both we and they live, and find a way to live in harmony with one another.

mountain man.

ive read the reviews from both sides and as someone who has dedicated his life to the wilderness. find myself to disagree with both.

i do not wish to cause further arguments but rather state some facts on animal behavior. starting with that of the human race.

it is and always has been my belief that the human race will be the end of themselves. out of all the creatures on this planet the human race is the only we can do without and the planet would even flourish without us. we are, by nature, destructive, and that we cannot change. we consume all the resources out of an area: mining, logging, polluting. and i feel that we ALL should take the time to understand more about our habitats and preserve as much of whats left of it as we can.but as smith states in the movie "the matrix". out of all the species on this planet we most resemble that of the virus. we destroy we populate, spread and destroy some more. again not looking to create an argument on the subject just stating that that is who we are. but it doesnt mean its who we HAVE to be. and to say that we are the most intelligent or top of the food chain is ignorant as we are not. you go out into the wilderness unarmed we are only mid-level as our chances or survival against a predator is virtually non-exsistant.

There you go again blasting me before you even know the facts. Heres the facts-- The library that I go to has just changed and remodeled the computer part of the library. I came here 3 different days to comment to you and all 3 times it refused to take my comment because it said that I was entering the wrong word 3 times. That is how my comments got on there 3 different times. Not my fault. Look Im sure you are a very nice guy in person. Its obviously you and I are 2 very different types of people. But like I said, Im sorry if I gave any kind of wrong impression to you about any part of me. I feel man will be the end of this planet. Im not out to prove that to anyone. I think we need to look at habitat destroyation. Like I said I am only one person. I cant make much of a change, I can only do my part. Recycle the can. Im not a college professor who can get out there and have their voice heard. I work a regular job at Great Lakes Navy Base in Illinios, slopping food on the sailors plate. Im struggling right now with health problems and to make my car payment. I will always see the animals point of view. No Im not Dr dolittle, but when my cat tells me he want to eat I hear him. I can feel inside me if a certain bird is in the area. I put food out for the squirrels, then I get mad when they knock it all out of the feeder. I hear the Blue Jay and I get his message. I watch every day for hawks and try to get the message they send me.These are things I was taught growing up with some Native American teachings. That everything has a soul, every tree, rock, blade of grass. to give back to the earth what we take. I have a certain repotoire with certain animals in my area. Our debate or whatever it was on the cougar is over as far as Im concerned. I still will always take the cougars side. I apologize for any namecalling or angry feelings on my part. But like I said, its not the animals fault they have been put in the situations they are in. They only want to survive as do we humans. We dominate the planet and now we try to dominate the galaxy. Goodluck K

Alright, I'm beginning to wonder if you can even read. You just said pretty much the exact same thing you said last time, in the same format. I'm done.

It seems to me as if you are changing your tone. I have never intended to get into any kind of debate with you or any one else. I also have not set out to prove any kind of view one way or another. Its like I have told you over and over again-- I merely am stating my own opinions and views or am I not entitled to them unless they are riddled in fact or shall we say rational enough for someone else to understand. You have gone way off trying to rationalize something that I am not even trying to prove or push off on someone. I am not a college graduate, nor was or am I a member of any debate team. Why you dont undrstand that I am not trying to prove anything I dont know. I dont think you should have to research that. I do see you as some sort of internet Bully who is trying to make me feel bad about myself and my views because I simply dont add up to your standards. I heard something the other day on TV that has gotten me thinking-- "the difference between mankind and the animal knigdom is that mankind is intelligent". I have been trying to rationalize that in my mind for the last week. We use dogs to hunt lost people. Dogs also lead around blind people. My stupid cat knows the difference between the Fancy feast can and the Friskies can when I get it out of the drawer. But Im all through trying to rationalize anything. People are entitled to feel and to have their own views about anything. This is a free country (or so I think). The reason I visit the P.O.C. site is to visit with people who have the same interests that I do --specifically cats and other animals. Never did I ever think for one minute that I would rile up some other human for simply stating how I felt about a certain subject, nor be told that I must have been abused as a child for feeling the way I do about certain things in the animal world. I am Native American. You came on to this site like gangbusters as if you were totally out to prove the point that if you run into a cougar it should be shot. That is your point of view, Im not going to try to rationalize you out of it. Like I said I am no college graduate, never intended to debate the subject with you or anyone else. You and your friend are whats wrong with this world ---(my opinion only) You only see your side and will do what ever you can to bring down someone like me. Im all through trying to rationalize anything with you or anyone else on the subject of the cougar. As we destroy their habitat that your friend so enjoys you will continue to see more and more of them and any other forest creature that has no where to go. Enjoy the forest preserves my friend you might see a mighty racoon or a coyote, make sure your heavily armed!!!

One more thing. Just because someone else disagrees with you and thinks you're being an idiot doesn't mean they're my friend, or that I know them. It means someone who happened across this page shares my point of view, and is equally offended by your attitude and way of thinking.

Ponder that for a while. Seriously.

I am an animal hater. I have a vendetta against cougars. I want to see pictures of wildlife instead of real wildlife. You didn't ask any questions to come up with these "opinions." You assumed they were true and shouted them as support for your beliefs. Why else would I disagree with you? I never called you a damaged abuse victim. I told you that the way you're thinking and behaving made me think you'd been mistreated. I left it open ended for you to reply to, and I'm not really sure because I don't feel like reading back, but I might even have asked if I was right. Asking questions does sound like me. Avoiding answering them does sound like you.

Let me give you a hint, Kathy. When people are "writing college papers," your "opinion" isn't relevant unless you have reasoning to back it up. When someone is discussing the stock market, you don't chime in with "Microsoft is going to fail because the gerbils know they're evil!" and then keep going, and going, and going. I don't care if that's what you believe. Doing that is just plain stupid. Either shut your mouth and let the people interested in a real intellectual conversation talk, or be prepared for the consequences of pissing them off. Voicing your opinion is fine. Just shut up after you're done unless you have something to ADD to the conversation, like REASONS why you think what you think. That's why people have those discussions. To hear REASONS, not ASSERTIONS, and maybe you don't realize this, but blasting ASSERTIONS without REASONS to people obviously interested in REASONS so they can get the clearest picture possible of whatever it is they're discussing will piss them off and make them MEAN if you don't stop.

You STARTED this argument with me with comments like:
"Man sees himself as the SUPREME BEING."
" YOu people make me sick."

Taken from your first reply. You should go back and read it and see just how wild your assertions were.

Do you know what my response is to that arrogant filth?
If I could swear at you here, I'd have told you. I couldn't, so I settled for this. The whole time, I gave you opportunity after opportunity to be rational or just state your opinion and leave it at that. But the fact of the matter is that you couldn't handle someone presenting THEIR opinion backed up by actual reasoning, so you kept on going. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You're an extremist. Don't rationalize your crap with wild speculations and pick fights with people. Be honest, like you were just now before you thought you'd lost your post. People will have a lot more respect for you.

You know, as I was reading your first response, I actually started to respect you a little. You were honest, you weren't preachy, weren't arrogant, weren't offensive, and weren't defensive. I was literally thinking, "Good for her!" It was great!

Then you had to retype it. Bad move.

In your second response you were passive aggressive, accusational, and just generally the psycho I'd come to expect. But kudos on not predicting the apocalypse as a RATIONALIZATION for saying it's OK to let cougars kill children. You know there's a difference between BEING rational and RATIONALIZING, right? When you rationalize, you start with a belief and do anything in your power to prove it right--to yourself and to others. The belief is more important than the facts. When you're being rational, you start with concrete observations and work your way up to a belief. The facts are more important than the belief.

You weren't just expressing your opinions, Kathy. You were arguing with me. You were countering my rational arguments with progressively more absurd ideas, like the coming apocalypse. I was never here to express my opinion. I came here to prove a few points, backed up by statistics and intellectual honesty. You're right, you did piss me off, and I was very mean to you. I can't stand people like you. You're hypocritical, preaching equality with a way of thinking that by definition requires an arrogant sense of superiority--the belief that the onus is on US to always do what's right, that we are somehow separated from nature, yet that we're all equal. If you'd just expressed your opinion with as much heart-felt, unabashed honesty as you did in the first version of your latest response, I'd have left it alone. That really was awesome. Way more than I expected from you. The problem is that you couldn't stand anyone having a different opinion from you, or criticizing your opinions with statistics that show that part, just PART of what you think is wrong. You were willing to do whatever you thought you had to do to convince me and everyone reading this, and maybe even yourself, that anything and everything supporting cats is right, and anything that doesn't support them is wrong, immoral, and evil. You not only started replying to statistics with talks about the end of the world, you started actively telling me that I hate animals, just because I didn't agree with you. You made assumption after assumption, about me, about my arguments, about EVERYTHING, and shouted them out publicly as if they were facts.

It sounds to me like youre changing your tone. I have not tried to push any beleifs off on any one. I have clearly stated that they are my own beliefs and I dont need to spend any time researching them. I have never claimed to be any type of college scholar or to be in any type of debate with anyone. I certainly have not set out to prove any type of point with you or anyone. You came on to this site like gangbusters like someone who definitly was out to prove some kind of point with all your rationalizing and debating. Sorry I am only a high school graduate who has her own vision of how I would like the world to be. But guess what the world is not that way. Rationalize this--- I heard this the other day and it has kept me thinking in my small little uninteligent mind for days"What sets mankind apart from the animal kingdom is their intelligence". Well I have to say that it is how you use that intelligence. As we slowly destroy the planet we live on. Also I have told you over and over again that what I state here are only my opinions and personal feelings. I never said it was a quick fix for the universe or the animalkingdom. I cant be drawn into some big debate with you over the outcome of the animal kingdom or mankind or this planet. I have loved animals all my life. That is not going to change. I visit this site to visit with other people who have cats. You did and your friend howevever did try to internet BULLY me. You tried to degrade me and you at one time even suggested that I had been abused as a child. I'm sorry if I got you upset over something that I didnt really mean to. Like I said again, The only thing Ive ever tried to do is only state my personal feelings and opionions and not get into some big rationalationing debate with you or anyone.

well another day at the library where my comments wont go through

It seems to me as if you are changing your tone a little bit. I have not said that my opinions are right nor wrong. I have not tried to prove anything. Like I have told you over and over again, this is how I feel, personally. I am not trying to push my beleifs off on anyone. I actually have not even tried to get into any kind of a debate with you or anyone. You came on to this page like gangbusters like someone out to prove a point. Like I have said over and over again, you need to rationalize this--- these things I have stated are only my personal feelings. I am not a college scholar on this subject of who is to rule the world- animal or man. I actually heard something the other day that set me thinking for days-- rationalize this if you will--"WHAT SETS HUMANS APART FROM THE ANIMAL KINGDOM IS OUR INTELLIGENCE". MY personal opinion and not that of some college scholar is the way that we use that intelligence. I dont claim to be genuis and I apologize to you if I came on to you as being someone who knew things that they didnt. I am just one lowly human who believes we should try and preserve the animal kingdom for future generations, people like me, before it is too late. The thought that wild animals still exist on this continent makes me want to do everything that I can to try and prserve what ever we have to do to keep those creatures alive. I have loved animals all my life. Theres not too much I can do to change things the way they are. Things like recycle. When I see a stray cat I cringe. There are so many of them, but there is nothing I can do about it. I feed maybe 3 of them in my neighborhood and a pair of people hated racoons.

What opinion, Kathy? That cougars are always right, and humans are always wrong?

It's an extremist position not grounded in fact. It's black and white thinking, and you're so set in your beliefs that you'll participate in a long discussion just to prove that it's never OK for humans to kill a cougar in self defense. It's always our fault, every time.

You call me closed minded, but you won't budge on any points. You won't even defend your points after I study for hours to gather real information to support my ideas. I've plainly said that someone hunting cougars for sport deserves whatever happens. May the best creature win. It's fair and rational.

People like you don't respond to facts or statistics. You only care about validating your beliefs and pushing them onto others. Anything that doesn't support your narrow view is dismissed immediately, and you move on to something else. You haven't brought up a single fact or piece of evidence in this entire debate. You've been wasting my time with talk about the end of the world, the evil of man, and accusing me of hating animals just because I don't agree with you.

I could be "mature" and drop the debate, but I won't do that. I refuse to be bullied into silence by someone who refuses to put any thought, time, or effort into making a point. Instead, you regurgitate your beliefs and make up stories. You don't care if you're right. You BELIEVE you're right, and nothing--no facts, statistics, logical or philosophical arguments--can make you doubt for one second that what you BELIEVE is 100% true.

When you're faced with something that doesn't support your hard-set BELIEF, you respond with, "I refuse to feed into your crap." Yeah, you refuse to consider anything that doesn't support your ideas, even if it used to be one of your defenses.

How in the hell do you expect me to respect that while YOU are calling ME closed minded? The purpose of a debate is to trade EVIDENCE and RATIONALITY in SUPPORT of your opinions. That's why it's called a debate, Kathy! You haven't been debating at all. I'm not going to respect your position in a debate when you refuse to or just plain can't participate!

The thing about rational positions is that they stand up to scrutiny. Defending them doesn't feed into the crap of your opposition, because they're RATIONAL and have enough support to justify their existence. Speculations aren't support. Speculations REQUIRE support, which you haven't offered, because you refuse to "feed into my crap." I'll let you in on a Secret, Kathy. If you had a valid rebuttal, you'd be DISCREDITING my "crap," not feeding into it!

You're an extremist. Debate is impossible. All I CAN do is ridicule you or let you walk all over the information I've spent time gathering, with speculation about the end of the world and the motives of wild animals who you've never had a conversation with. Or... HAVE you been talking to the cougars? At this point, that wouldn't surprise me.

You wont be calling me tree hugger when all the trees are gone and you both are gasping for air some where. You are the type of people who would rather see a picture of something in the wild then actually see it in the wild. Im glad you both got so upset over me not feeding into your crap. I hope you dont come back to this site because like I said it is for animal lovers not closed minded jerks like you two. Even my boyfriend Jeff who totally is for hunting didnt give me the sort of comment you two did. Ever heard of Karma?? People like you will be the end of the world as we see it today. The area where I live is a prime example. Once covered with farmland now all you see are subdivisions and stores closing to make bigger ones. Forests have been destroyed. Do you wonder where all the critters went that used to live there. I know you two surely dont. I used to ride my horse all over this area. Now we are confined to indoor arenas. Even if you did want to ride in the forests , called Forest Preserves, You have to pay to ride in there. /But then make sure youre armed because a critter may attack you if theres any left. Im sorry you resorted to name calling it only goes to show how ignorant you and your friend really are. I only tried to show you respect in your beliefs, but to such unrespectful people like you and your friend that would be impossible.

Nick, you're forgetting that the cougars only kill us because we're destroying the earth, and they sense this with their special nature powers. So really, Pumas are just trying to save the world, and we should let them. No, we should probably pay them for it, or at least get them spandex and capes.

I think Kathy has a really great point here.

Anyone want to donate for a Cougar superhero outfit design? Maybe that will help us all remember that cougars are killing us to save the world and not because they're hungry predators. Really we shouldn't even need reminding, since predators don't just kill animals to eat, but people are stupid. I was one of them until Kathy showed me the light.

Dan
Why bother? This chicks a FREAK. Why do you think, for one minute, that common sense and facts will get through this tree hugger. Common sense won't, facts wont, and me calling her names wont.....but who cares, I LIKE calling this bimbo names.

A cougar kills a human......its just nature.

A man kills a cougar......its hate.

Man and animals are EQUAL......but, WE need to protect THEM...Hey, Cathy you freak, how is that EQUAL????

If your NOT religious, ANY talk of man having to care for animals in ANY way is stupid as hell.

I love it how WE are encroaching on THEIR territory........huh?

These animals ARE NOT shy, they are NOT RETIRING. They are NOT afraid of man. They see man as they see ANY other animal.....AS POTENTIAL PREY. And when a man gets attacked...ITS NOT A MISTAKE, its NOT because the animal is hurt, or slow, or old and can't kill anything else.....its because to them, man ain't no big deal. Were slow, weak and without a gun, DEFENSELESS.

I hate it when they make excuses for animals that attack men. Ever hear the one about a shark "MISTAKING" US for say.....seals???? HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

Please, I watch a program on sharks, they go on and on and on about how sharks are this PERFECT KILLING MACHINE. That they are built, by nature, to do one thing and one thing only...to kill. That they can smell one drop of blood in a gazillion gallons of water, etc , etc, etc....BUT when they attack US, well, by golly, its A MISTAKE. We look like a seal!!!!! They attack us BECAUSE they could give a ratz ass who or what we are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it wasn't for our brains, we would have been extinct a long time ago. Our brains are OUR weapon. And WE HAVE THE RIGHT, BY NATURE, TO KILL ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING WE NEED OR WANT TO.....Now, if we kill off too much, nature adjusts.....just like if we kill off each other...NATURE will adjust.

Now, if people like Kathy would just go to the head of the line............

Oh, and don't bother replying to this, Kathy, I'm never coming back to this sight, I have NO DESIRE to waste A SECOND of my time reading ANYTHING you think......but it was WELL WORTH MY TIME to tell you what an imbecile you are. NOW......YOU HAVE A NICE DAY, HEAR??

If you think hunting a mountain lion is sport, you need to reexamine. They are a large,fast cagey animal. A couger's range is generally a hundred miles or more. they have been known to attack people, but you should have more concern for your pets than yourself. Cougars are not easy to hunt even using dogs. And yes when hunted they will probably become dangerous as would I if hunted. i think they are a wonderful specimen in the wild. I have a spiritual reverence for them and would only harm or kill one in complete total self defense.

Hmmm, looking back, you're right about everything except for me hating animals and trying to control everything. My apologies.

Daniel, Im addressing this to you because I want you to know that I did re read all of the comments on this page from and to you. I realized that I was not the only one here that you personally attacked. YOu definitly sound to me like you are out on a kill the puma rampage. YOu are the one who needs to slow down and reread your comments not just to me but to Jan and the others here as well. You are the one who definitly seems like he is out on a campaign to prove your point on how dangerous the puma is and all your statistics dont even make sense. YOu totally have missed my point and I wasnt even trying to argue with you or prove anything. Im not irrational or any of that. You took all my comments and twisted them around in some evil fantastic way as if you were trying to prove me wrong in some point or as if I was writing some college paper on the evils of mankind. You still dont get it that these are only my views and opinions and my personal feelings, You seem to be missing that point. National Geographic did a special in their magazine a few years back on the Puma. You should look it up and read it. Their Picture was on the front cover. I will look it up when I get a chance and tell you what year and month it was, Im sure I still have it some where. Corresponding with you is useless because you are out on some vendetta to prove some point about how dangerous the puma is.

First of all I dont recall ever telling you to stick anything up your backside or argueing with you in any way. I checked my correspondences just to be sure. I also never attempted to argue any religios views, points, or even the Bible with you. The God issue is for every man woman and child to interprete in their own way. The only point I have ever tried to make is my own belief that we should share the earth and the wild creatures should be given lee way when you enter into their habitats. Whatever the hell you are talking about and argueing about I really dont have any idea because you dont make any sense with all your rationalzations. I have not tried to rationalize anything. You are the one who feels you have to justify and rationalize not only my comments but your own. That sign was clearly posted to warn people that they were entering into cougar territory and should keep their children close. How ever you go off on a rampage claiming if you encouter a cougar it should be killed. I only tried to point out that there may be other ways to deal with that situation besides killing the animal. Such as a flare might work nicely, pepper spray seems to work well on a bear. Shoot besides it might help scare it off. I seem to have lost track of whatever you are talking about. I do know that I feel I am being personally attacked by you. My love of animals and my feelings that they should be allowed to live in harmony with humans seems to have offended you in a GREAT way. So I have come to the conclusion that you are one of those not so nice humans who feels he has to control justify or rationalize everything in his life.

So because I recognize that cougars are dangerous, and because I'd rather see a cougar killed than have myself or an 8-year-old boy killed, I'm an animal hater?
Kathy, this is why I called you irrational. Personally, I don't think it's uncalled for. You've turned the two beliefs above into a personal jihad against the "animal haters," and it's been apparent in every single response you've written. You've done everything you can think of to disprove me, because you think I belong to some opposite evil camp of people who hate animals. You don't even care what I have to say--don't even care about what YOU'RE saying. All you care about is that you beat the "animal haters." You even admitted as much.

"I cant argue with your (you brought up God, not me) Bible rational because I havent actually had time to reasearch the Bible (then don't use it to justify yourself) like you have. I was however raised catholic and went all 8 years to a catholic grade school. (so it's OK to ignore the bible?) I dont argue with you because I refuse to feed into any of your justification for the way humans are the way they are. (yes exactly, you don't care about anything but winning)"

You don't care about what either of us said. You don't care about its validity. All you care about is winning against this imaginary, evil animal hater. I can't argue with an irrational vendetta. It just doesn't work.

Personally, I don't think calling that irrational is uncalled for. I don't see another course of action when dealing with someone who argues without giving a second thought, or sometimes even any thought at all, to either side's position, because they REFUSE, for better or worse, to even CONSIDER anything that might work against them, especially when they're assigning irrational labels like "animal hater" and turning it into some kind of good vs evil conflict.

Yes, Kathy, that is irrational. That is the picture perfect portrait of irrationality.

And do remember, Kathy, that you started arguing with me by basically telling me to shove my statistics up my back-side, not the other way around.

Yes I feel you totally have missed my point. Did you even read my last comment?? I am an animal lover and there is nothing you can say that will change that. Your personal attack on me was really uncalled for. You dont even know me. I never made any snide comments toward you personally or your personal beliefs. I am just one small human who sees the way other humans want to pen up and control the animal population without even giving nature a chance to take care of her own. What I wrote on here were only my personal beliefs. Not what I learned in church or read out of a book. My personal feelings toward conservation and the people who make those rules were my personal feelings and they werent meant to get me into a bantering argument. I dont have anything to prove. I see what I see and I beleive what I believe. I grew up on a farm. I watched an HBO special last night on the factory farming of pigs. Many humans dont see animals even as living breathing creatures. I beleive you are one of these types of people. I would rather see pictures of cats on here than be in no win banter with you.

I cant argue with your Bible rational because I havent actually had time to reasearch the Bible like you have. I was however raised catholic and went all 8 years to a catholic grade school. I dont argue with you because I refuse to feed into any of your justification for the way humans are the way they are. My only feelings are that we should share the earth and I believe God created all creatures equal. I feel that you are entitled to your opinion just as I am. I also feel this site is for animal lovers and not animal haters like you. I have Native American heritage and my grandfather taught me to respect the creatures of the forest and only to kill one if necessary for survival. If I ran into a cougar in the wild I probaly would not kill it and if he kills me oh well. I should not have been in his domain just like I wouldnt walk into someones backyard if I knew they had a vicious dog. I also dont know if you ever ran into one in the wild and for them being killing machines I beleive they are only doing what they need to do to survive. But I suppose you have researched them like you have researched the Bible. Again these are only my feelings and I never had no intention of any argument with you. I never was not abused ever nor am I a member of Peta or any animal rights group. In Native American teachings there are people who are called keepers of the earth. How many dead animal do you ever notice along side of the road? I see them all. I beleive animals have souls. And again these are only my personal feelings and as far as getting into a battering argument with you that was never my intention. Personally I would rather be in a crowd of pigs than in a crowd of people. This site is called Pictures of Cats. Its for animal lovers and not for debates like you have drawn me into.

No, humans aren't relentless predators that have nothing better to do than stalk and kill. Humans also recognize one another as kindred spirits, so are not half as likely to attack one another on sight as a cougar is a man. Put a serial killer in a room full of people, and he'll probably chit chat. Put any wild cougar in a room full of people, and you're looking at violence. Your arguments don't make sense, and I'm starting to feel like I'm wasting my time. I don't mean to offend you, but the things you're coming up with aren't thought out, and once they're disproven, you just move on to something else entirely. What happened to the God argument? Dropped because it actually works against your position? If you're not going to be forthcoming about the real, honest reason why you're arguing with me, then participating in this discussion is an exercise in futility.

This is the third time I've mentioned this, but you keep bringing up nature's intentions, etc, without ever mentioning what sets man apart from nature, or why our actions aren't natural. My guess is that you don't have a rational answer, so you avoid the question and play the nature card like it's some kind of hidden ace. Unfortunately, it's quite worthless if you can't even express an opinion about what makes cougars natural and men unnatural. You can't use God or the bible, because you dropped that argument as soon as I presented a quote from the old testament that supports my side of things.

If you want to continue to discuss this, please stop making things up ("We also will be the end of our planet as we see it. Maybe the cougar senses this."), and stop presuming to possess divine, unexplainable knowledge about what is natural and what isn't. I don't know what I said to set you off like this, but I feel I've done my part presenting the facts to support my assertion that a) cougars are dangerous and b) the best way to survive an encounter with a hostile cougar is to kill it. You've said nothing to refute them, and instead you started a debate about nature and equality that you don't seem capable of participating in.

So, unless you start making sense, this will be the last message I post.

P.S. Cougars don't live more harmoniously than we do. They kill anything they're capable of killing, with less discrimination than we do. That is their place. This is ours.

So next time I meet a hostile human my instict should be to kill it?? My belief is we should share the earth. If we were equal than the same laws should apply to humans. But they dont and the creatures of the forests will continue to be persecuted because of mans belief that he should dominate and control everything either for his own benefit or for the survival of the human race. What about population control and all the hostiles in our prison system. I have met many dangerous humans in my lifetime to the point where I had to duck down and hide behind my car one time to avoid gunshots. Was I in the wrong place at the wrong time?? Probaly but is that what puts the cougar in the wrong place at the wrong time?? I went into a potentially dangerous neighborhood. Should all of those dangerous humans have been hunted down and shot? So just look at the forests and mountainsides as potentially dangerous neighborhoods. The creatures of the forest have all learned to pretty much live there the way nature has intended. Humans will never learn to live in harmony with the things around them. It all goes back to this domination issue. We also will be the end of our planet as we see it. Maybe the cougar senses this.

I'd also like to expand a bit on this:
"Preserves aren't an excuse, either. They're the results of mercy and forethought."

You and the rest of the people here are proof that mercy has a place in our decision to create preserves. You're not some rare, special breed of people. Nearly all humans are quite capable of feeling empathy toward animals as well as humans. Not to steal your thunder or anything, but there are a LOT of people like you. A LOT of them have also pursued their passions to produce real-world results wherever possible, including pushing for the creation of preserves.

Your assumption that you and your ilk are so rare that mercy couldn't possibly have played a role in the creation of preserves seems a bit arrogant to me, and it makes me think you've had some traumatic experiences, particularly in childhood, that have left you with a horribly skewed outlook on humanity. If that's the case, you should realize that you were just unlucky. The majority of the population aren't villainous cretins trying to kill, maim, or murder everything they see, and most of them are quite empathetic when given the chance.

That's why cougars are protected. Not because we want an excuse to kill them. That wouldn't even make sense.

Look, I'm not a very religious person, but even I know that you don't want to bring the bible into this.

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

So, we're doing exactly as God wants, correct? Subduing the earth? We have dominion over all.

I don't buy into that. I subscribe to the thought that we're just another animal, and that we're doing the same thing the cougars are doing: following our instincts. Everything we're doing is natural, because we're a part of nature. The only thing separating us from the cougars are our abilities.

And no, cougars didn't migrate to follow their source of food. They will eat anything they can kill. If there IS food (the cougar equivalent of resources), shelter, water, and a reasonable means to survive, they will go migrate there. They'll migrate to any place they deem comfortable. The same is true for any animal, including humans.

You also haven't explained what separates men from animals, fundamentally. You haven't explained how men following their instincts are different from animals following their instincts. You haven't explained why one should be judged differently than the other.

I don't think we should be. I think it's a case of two animals whose instincts place them in a state of opposition, and that one can't be blamed for being more powerful than the other.

Preserves aren't an excuse, either. They're the results of mercy and forethought. The world we live in won't be sustainable if we destroy everything, so we do what we can to preserve it, but essentially still do what all life is programmed to do. Survive and thrive, to the best of our ability, at the expense of any life form we might need to sacrifice. That IS nature.

I've never said that cougars were evil, or somehow morally reprehensible for attacking us. That would be insane. No, they're following their instincts, just like we are, and they can't be faulted for it any more than we can. And if we can, so can they. It's a two way street. What I've said is that cougars are dangerous, and if you encounter a hostile, aggressive cougar, the best way to ensure your survival, and the survival of others, is to kill it.

I don't know why, but that seems to offend you.
So be it. We seem to have very different views on things.

God created all things equal in the beginning. Then man sinned and was thrown out of the garden. So then man thought he was the supreme being. MY point being that man tries to control everything, even in nature. We put the animals on preserves then we try to use conservation as an excuse to try and protect them. Most conservationalists justify this as their reason for having more animals to kill or hunt. They will claim starvation is cruel. Isnt this natures way of population control? Isnt this the law of the fittest??
In most natural settings the weak will be weeded out by their natural predators. Who may I ask is the natural predator of man?? These animals migrate because they are usually following their natural food chain, RIGHT?? What food chain is man following when we go into the cougars natural habitate?? And since when have humans had to migrate?? Sure we do on our own accord, such as going to a warmer climate during winter. I would like to think that the national forests were created to give equal oportunity for other species besides man to survive. When a puma or bear come into our territory we instictively want to kill it. Why is that?? So why is the pumas behavior any more different than ours. They see us as a threat to their foodchain or even maybe as their next meal. I feel some animals reason better than others. As far as dogs go, I have been around dogs all my life. I have seen dogs kill each other. I once worked at a kennel, where my son was viciously attacked by a German Shepherd dog that had puppies. What provoked that attack I have only had to reason that she saw my son as a threat or thought he meant her puppies harm. At the same kennel a poodle dog that had puppies ate one of her puppies and the kennel owner called me up freaking out. When I went there the next day I reasoned that the poor dog was starving to death since the kennel owner had no food for her dogs. She ate the one pup so the other three could survive. This could have been the reason the other dog attacked my son. I was only working there at that time and at the time the dog ate her pups I had already quit there because already at that time the woman was not providing her dogs with the proper food or care, nor her elderly mother. Needless to say she was closed down shortly after that. She was on the front page of the newspaper crying about her babies. WE as humans dont actually know what goes on in the mind of a forest animal or a dog who attacks humans. Dog is supposed to be mans best friend right?? Well i guess not all of them see it that way. Could it be because of the abuse some humans force on their animals? I still say some humans have outlived their welcome on planet earth. Look at it from the animals point of view for once.

Also, Kathy, the only reason those statistics were mentioned was because they're being used to infer that dogs are more dangerous than cougars, which is nonsense. I don't advocate hounding cougars, and I wasn't trying to say that cougars were evil. I was just pointing out that some of the arguments used by this site are just plain wrong, and even a bit manipulative, if you actually sit down and think about them.

Kathy, I don't even know how to debate with you.

Your arguments just don't make sense to me.
They appear to contradict themselves.

You put everything in terms of man vs nature, yet insist that we're all equal.

When cougars migrate to other habitats, it's natural.
When humans migrate to other habitats, it isn't.

This is what you believe, correct?

Tell me, what sets man apart from nature?
Honestly, sit down and think about it.
Write up something thoughtful.

I'm very curious about how you see this.

What about the human who shoots the invader into his own home, the cougar is only acting in the same way????

I realize that many of the regular corresponders refused to get into this argument. MY comment is that there are just too many humans in this world. We humans made our own world. We encrouched on the animals habitat soo much that we think we own the world. Humans try to run everything. Do we hear the puma or cougars crying everytime a human kills one of them. Ask them for their statistics why dont you??? The animal kingdom has no say so in this world. Even the Native Americans have become so modernized that they twist their own beliefs to suit modern day life. We have taken the habitat away from the forest animals so that they have no choice but to kill humans who go into their world. YOu dont have to worry because the senseless killing of the animals will never stop. Humans will keep antagonizing them and refusing to let them have any say so in the running of even the forest or mountainlands that they call their homes. So you just go ahead on with all your statistics of animals killing people, because it will never stop. Man sees himself as the SUPREME BEING. Animals will never have a say so in the world. YOu people make me sick. Stay out of the forests and mountainlands, that what forest preserves are for. They may be small but that is how us humans have choose to make our world,SMALL.

Mountain lion sightings have increased dramatically as well, from 59 in 1991 to over 300 in 1994 in California. However, because of a number of reasons, perhaps 80% of all lion sightings are actually deer, bobcats, dogs, and even domestic cats.

Taken from:
http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks.html

So, the 2000 number is crazily overdone, meaning any statistics I gave you based on that number are far, far too low.

The same is true for other numbers used in the calculations.

Also, if you want, we can try to break it down by "time spent driving," and "time spent in contact with dogs" compared to "time spent in contact with wild cougars" and get some more (extremely rough) numbers.

Somehow I think the time people spend driving per trip, and the time people spend with their dogs, absolutely dwarfs the amount of time spent in a typical cougar sighting.

So yes, we could break down (extremely roughly) how dangerous those precious minutes are when you see the cougar, compared to time spent driving or with your dog.

But really, I don't think you'd like those numbers, either.

When I get the facts and data right... hmmm.

California cougar populations are up to a rough estimate of 6000, from 600. CHECK
Cougars are reappearing in territories where they had previous been extinct. CHECK

U.S. Cougars: 50000 CHECK
U.S. Dogs: 77500000 CHECK

Average annual deaths by Cougar: 0.8 CHECK
Annual deaths by Dog in 2007: 33 CHECK (could not find average)

Cougar death / cougar population = 0.000016 CHECK
Dog death / dog population = .000000425806452 CHECK

Cougars 37.575 times as likely to kill you CHECK

Understanding that, annually, humans see more dogs than cougars by a factor of millions... CHECK
understanding that that means that the 37.575 number is GROSSLY understated if you actually see one... CHECK CHECK CHECK CHECK CHECK!!!!

For illustrative purposes... say 2000(high, assumes almost 6 per day) cougar sightings per year, 1 death. 1000000000 (low, would suggest that each dog owner saw their dog once every 12 days) dog sightings per year, 33 deaths. Oh man, do the math!

Get my facts straight? What are you smoking?

Let's go over the car issue.
Avg car trips per household: 9.7/day
Est. households in USA: 111,162,259
Avg car trips per year: 393,569,977,989

Rough avg annual car deaths: 40,000

Danger per trip: 0.00000010163376842000375204589421521503
Cougar danger again: 0.000016

A single living cougar is 157x as dangerous as a car trip.
This also does NOT account for the fact that there are probably less than 1000 cougar sightings per year.

Again, if you actually SEE a cougar, your danger level soars exponentially higher.
It's all in the numbers, if you actually look, instead of just ignorantly running your mouth about things you're too busy to put any independent thought into.

In fact, let's calculate the cougar danger based on a VERY inflated number...
0.8/2000 = 0.0004

And let's assume that a dog's main owner sees his dogs only once a day, and that nobody else ever sees them. (far from true)
77500000 x 1 x 365 = 282,875,000,000
33 Dog Deaths... 0.00000000011665930181175430844012372956253

Cougar sightings are 34287878 times as likely to get you killed as dog sightings.
Cougar sightings are 3935 times as likely to get you killed as car trips.

If we used more realistic numbers, it would be even worse.
This is all grossly and intentionally underestimated, so you couldn't say I'm skewing the numbers in my favor.
No, they're in your favor, by orders of magnitude.

Everycat, I wouldn't exactly call that the truth. You completely missed the point of my article, along with all of my subsequent comments. Then you went willy-nilly with insane assertions that have absolutely no basis in fact. (prey animals turn on us because we're arrogant? wtf?!?!)

For example, what's with this crazy idea that, "Animals are as sentient as humans."
Let me ask of you the same thing the site owner asked me: PROVE IT. Show me the data. Scientific evidence.

Also, are you telling me that, right now, I'm posting this comment so that I can reproduce, avoid death, or kill something?
Gosh, sir or ma'am, you're a genius. Even I didn't know that, and I'm the one doing it!
I wonder if Beethoven wrote music so he could get laid. Obviously, it had nothing to do with self expression or spreading joy.
That's just not human, yeah? And you, you standing up for these creatures, has nothing to do with compassion for a creature that would kill you if it had the chance, does it? No no, you're selfishly trying to survive and reproduce, as you've just explained to me. You don't believe these creatures deserve to live one bit, do you? No, of course not. That wouldn't be human.

You're right, though. My children are of no greater value to this earth than a grain of salt. Know why? The earth doesn't value anything.
It's kind of... uhm... a rock. Floating in an ocean of mostly empty space. So, I believe you. The earth doesn't value me, or my children, or the mountain lion, one little bit. I'm not sure what your point is, but hey, I agree with you! There's no value to life except that which we assign to it.

Now that we're on the same page...
We value human life more. Mountain lions value their lives more. That's how nature and animals work! (Yes, what we're doing is natural!)

Quite simply, really, isn't it? And since we're both animals, and supposedly equally sentient (I'm not quite convinced yet), we both have an equal right to value the lives and rights of our own species above those of the others--no harm, no foul! In fact, it's only natural for us to do so. Go nature! You know, even though I don't agree with the sentient thing, I think maybe I should adopt that position. It really makes this much, much easier.

You know what I think? I think you're the arrogant one. It's YOU, not I, who has set humanity on a pedestal, preaching that we must NOT do what comes natural to us, while it's okay for the pumas to do whatever the heck they like. And you, standing on a cloud with a halo over your head, are positioned even higher, preaching with an air of benevolence, condemning humanity as primitive beasts that just want to kill and maim. You're setting yourself apart from both humans AND animals, while claiming we're all the same! Well done, hypocrite. Well done.

The main article sent in is rather vague isn't it.What,we're just to read what is written and suck it up as fact.Well okay.I will.Just as soon as you can give me the facts.Before you sent in this tripe,perhaps you should have done your research and been able to verify your comments and statements.Good grief! There were 17 dog attacks in my county alone ,last MONTH!And I sure haven't seen the "Good Ol' Boys" loading up to form a hunting party for the dogs!(
for your benefit:Guadalupe County, Marion,Texas) Two were fatal,the others were mauls,and all on humans.Dogs,not the local coyotes,attacked and killed four of our sheep last month!(have the report to Animal Control,if you'd care to see it).Of course our Anonymous friend has done all your research for you.Sadly the pumas in our area have been hunted to near non-existence.
Pumas/Mountain Lions are not infringing on the humans,sir.In fact the opposite is true.we have spread out into THEIR territory,over crowed them,and then shot them and hound them when they attack and object!man is sadly destroying all wildlife habitat,and when they have nowhere else to go,they come into "man country".You shoot and kill a puma for defending it's young,and it's own territory.Whats next? Gonna start shooting your neighbors when they get too close?
When you get the facts and data right,let me know!

An interesting argument to justify hounding Mountain Lions. I can't say I agree with any of it.

Please understand that the sacredness that you imbue human beings with should also apply to every other creature on the planet.

We are animals as much as they are, except that we (humans) encroach on their territory, leave out trash to entice them to feed easily, actively hunt and trap them (
for entertainment) and most of all we whine and bleat every single time one of them justifiably defends their territory, their young or their food.

The theme of your article concentrates on attacks, aggression and revenge - all the same stuff that humans regularly subject animals too. Don't you see that focussing on aggression leads to more aggression? Violence breeds violence and this is exactly what has happened in the crossover world of Mountain Lions and humans. Humans hysterically shooting any Mountain Lion they see, any excuse to behave like rampant, ignorant primates and humans seem unable to resist violent and blind behaviour.

This arrogance of humans is exactly the reason why the larger prey animals turn on us. Our children, our territories, our food is no more importance than that of the mountain lion.

Animals are as sentient as humans. Do you not understand that all humans ever do can all be traced back to the prime drivers of sex and death. Yep, every single thing any animal (humans are animals) ever does is based on these two motiators - avoiding death so we can reproduce, reproducing so our line can avoid evolutionary death.

I do think it's time humans gave themselves a humbling kick up the backside and quit using this shallow arrogance to excuse their very poor understanding of natural behaviour.

Your children are of no greater value to this earth than the offspring of the lowliest worm.

Ok hate me. I speak the truth.

Regarding your dog vs puma statistics, they're really very misleading, not even slightly acceptable as a scientific basis for comparing threats. Even a cursory consideration reveals factors you've failed to account for, such as how many dogs people are exposed to on a daily basis, on average, compared to how many people are actually wandering around cougar country. The same is true for cars and car accidents. It's irresponsible to use these statistics in support of your agenda without ensuring that the message you're trying to send is the message the data really conveys. It's negligent, and if you do it willingly, it's manipulative. Definitely not scientific.

I hope you understand that I'm not trying to attack you or incite anger, I'm just trying to correct the information on your page that I found to be faulty, in some cases immoral, and in others even dangerous. I'll admit I was a bit rough regarding proof and science, etc., but that was in response to your assertion that my position was somehow unsupported by fact, while yours apparently was.

Regardless, I share a respect for these creatures, and I've always wanted to see one in person. But I'm not disillusioned into thinking I'm not on its menu. I also wouldn't hesitate to kill one if it were threatening me, or any other human being.

You may also want to update your attacks list page, which erroneously reports attack statistics like:

1996 – 2003 no attacks

Based on information reported on the attacks pane on the right side of the link I posted:

1996 - 6 attacks
1997 - 7 attacks
1998 - 9 attacks
1999 - 6 attacks
2000 - 8 attacks
2001 - 3 attacks
2002 - 4 attacks
2003 - 2 attacks

Really, I don't think it's me who needs to do the researching.

http://www.cougarinfo.org/

That's a good site with balanced information.
You should check out the attacks portion, which includes these two following reports.

There are many more, both on that site and scattered elsewhere.

1995

Fall. Photographer Moses Street was jogging on a popular trail in Rocky Mountain National Park near Estes Park, CO, when he glanced over his shoulder and saw a cougar about to pounce on him. The cougar backed off when Street yelled and waved his arms. Street used a large tree branch to stop a second and third attack.

Street climbed a tree and had to keep using the branch to keep the lion from advancing up the tree. Park Rangers rescued him after Street's girlfriend alerted them. (Washington Post, 7/13/97, A01)
1996

??. A woman was killed defending her 6-year-old son from a lion in British Columbia. The woman and three children were horseback riding when a male 65-pound lion jumped from a bush at the boy, knocking him off his horse. The mother came to his aid, and was killed. (GORP Lion Info)

One more thing.

The fact that a female puma weighs as much as a child is meaningless. A puma can take down a 1000 lb elk, which is a feat even the strongest man couldn't accomplish bare handed.

Most people wandering in the wilderness do not carry guns.

...cont

If you'd like to see documented, verified cases of cougar attacks, please also use Google. There are plenty of them, and some of them are quite brutal. Many people who had encounters with cougars found the hand waving, rock throwing techniques quite ineffective, and were either stalked or attacked anyway. The information is out there so long as you don't turn a blind eye to it in defense of your bias.

Cougars and humans cannot and will not coexist peacefully without us intervening. Even if we stopped expanding completely (impractical, and we have as much right to expand as they do), they would still make their way to our suburbs as younger pumas are forced to find new territory. Their populations expand quickly to fill any available space, as each puma can claim a territory of up to 35 square miles, and the males will kill any trespassers they find.

They have no choice but to expand, so blaming humans for expanding "into their territory" for these attacks is really a rather moot point. The borders of our territory will ALWAYS be the borders of theirs, so long as there's prey to be found in the area(which does include cats and dogs, and sometimes even humans).

The reason cougar attacks have been on the rise is largely due to the fact that their populations are booming. We hunted them near to extinction, but now that they're protected, they've repopulated the entire west, and they're even reappearing (and attacking) in more eastern states where they had been driven extinct.

Honestly, I think it's a little ironic that you'd demand scientific proof from me, when you offer none on your page about pumas, and your response to me includes a very, very easily refutable fact like, "their numbers are dwindling." I would advise you to read up on the issue before you continue peddling a philosophy that essentially amounts to "Humans who are killed by pumas deserve to die more than the puma." There's no other way to interpret your disdain of lethal force defending one's self against a lethal predator.

Pointless hunting? I can understand disagreeing with that.
Protecting humans and livestock? Personally, I don't see how anyone could stomach the alternative.

That's an interesting straw man argument, but I never said that cougars and humans had equal rights. I said we have an equal right to expand and enjoy the wilderness. That being said, if they can't coexist with us without attacking us, we have the right to eliminate those of them who show aggression. If a human went out to attack a cougar and was killed, he'd have been asking for it. Similarly, if a human went out to kill a cougar's direct prey, similar to a cougar attacking our livestock, and the cougar took him out, he was asking for it. In that regard, yes, we're equal.

If you really need scientific evidence that cougars are both extremely dangerous, powerful predators, browse on over to google and have at it. They're the most versatile predators on the continent, adapting to virtually any environment and any prey they encounter. If they can kill it, they will, and they will eat it.

But sometimes, they don't even eat it. I can recall at least one case of a cougar killing an entire herd of livestock, for no particular reason. If you want more information, please feel free to google it. You're misrepresenting these creatures as gentle, passive neighbors, but there's a wealth of information to suggest otherwise. If you're so concerned about scientific validity, please, post some scientific studies showing that they're not interested in eating humans, or that responding with aggression is anything other than "the best way to survive," rather than a "sure way to chase off the gentle beast."

You're also mistaken about cougar populations. They're increasing, not decreasing. I will post a link referencing this, written by research director T. R. Mader.

http://www.aws.vcn.com/mountain_lion_fact_sheet.html

It has quite a bit of other information regarding mountain lions, and predators in general, along with how man's intervention has affected the wilds of North America.

cont...